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Level 4
May 3, 2023
Solved

Start up Expense No Income

  • May 3, 2023
  • 2 replies
  • 46 views

Client took a course to learn to buy and sell (flip) houses. I know the course itself is not deductible.             

My question is if the Mentorship program which allows him to contact/consult with experts, and which he pays monthly can be deducted and under what category.  

The other expense in question is the renewal of the coaching program, which is renewal of the original course but which was paid for after client was officially in business, if so, under what category? 

Thank you. 

Client had 0 income in 2022. 

 

This topic has been closed for replies.
Best answer by BobKamman

The date of registration has nothing to do with the start of business operations, for purposes of allowing current  tax deductions rather than those that must be amortized.  But if you're going to copy and paste from someone's website, at least give them credit. 

https://cookcpagroup.com/what-defines-the-start-of-a-business-for-tax-purposes/

Business startup and organizational costs are generally capital expenditures. However, you can elect to deduct up to $5,000 of business startup and $5,000 of organizational costs paid or incurred after October 22, 2004. The $5,000 deduction is reduced by the amount your total startup or organizational costs exceed $50,000. Any remaining costs must be amortized.

If your attempt to go into business is unsuccessful. If you are an individual and your attempt to go into business is not successful, the expenses you had in trying to establish yourself in business fall into two categories.

--The costs you had before making a decision to acquire or begin a specific business. These costs are personal and nondeductible. They include any costs incurred during a general search for, or preliminary investigation of, a business or investment possibility.
--The costs you had in your attempt to acquire or begin a specific business. These costs are capital expenses and you can deduct them as a capital loss.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535 

In any case, I feel sorry for these people who go to seminars but don't learn that the best way to make money is by selling seminars.  Did someone tell your client that by calling it a business, the profit on that flipped house is going to be taxed twice, for income tax and then for self-employment tax?  And in a declining real estate market, that huge Schedule C loss combined with a 1099-S may inspire IRS to apply a $3,000 annual limit.  

2 replies

Just-Lisa-Now-
Intuit Community Champion
May 4, 2023

With a Flipping business, how do you know when youre actually "in business"? 

Has he purchased his first flip yet?

♪♫•*¨*•.¸¸♥Lisa♥¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪
AdriAuthor
Level 4
May 4, 2023

He has not purchased a house yet. Would IRS consider him to be in business after he sells his first house, or when he makes his first offer even if he doesn't get the property or when he is actively looking for properties?  

Just-Lisa-Now-
Intuit Community Champion
May 4, 2023

Im honestly not sure, I haven't researched it, that's why I worded it as a question...has he made any offers to purchase anything, how is he "in business"? 

♪♫•*¨*•.¸¸♥Lisa♥¸¸.•*¨*•♫♪
Level 2
May 4, 2023

The key question is when has the business activity started.  There can be expenses which are considered as "start-up" costs and these maybe either expenses or amortized depending on the nature of the expenses.

Normally, the start date for a business is when the business is registered. This means that a company like an LLC or a partnership is responsible for paying taxes on the date they register with a particular state. It also may be possible for a business to choose their start date.

Business start-up usually can be claimed in the year the business was started.  One also can amortize these costs over a certain number of years.

It is unclear why you state that the initial cost of the Seminar is not a business start-up cost.

 

Also, expenses of this type could be deducted as "Other Expenses".

BobKamman
BobKammanAnswer
Level 15
May 4, 2023

The date of registration has nothing to do with the start of business operations, for purposes of allowing current  tax deductions rather than those that must be amortized.  But if you're going to copy and paste from someone's website, at least give them credit. 

https://cookcpagroup.com/what-defines-the-start-of-a-business-for-tax-purposes/

Business startup and organizational costs are generally capital expenditures. However, you can elect to deduct up to $5,000 of business startup and $5,000 of organizational costs paid or incurred after October 22, 2004. The $5,000 deduction is reduced by the amount your total startup or organizational costs exceed $50,000. Any remaining costs must be amortized.

If your attempt to go into business is unsuccessful. If you are an individual and your attempt to go into business is not successful, the expenses you had in trying to establish yourself in business fall into two categories.

--The costs you had before making a decision to acquire or begin a specific business. These costs are personal and nondeductible. They include any costs incurred during a general search for, or preliminary investigation of, a business or investment possibility.
--The costs you had in your attempt to acquire or begin a specific business. These costs are capital expenses and you can deduct them as a capital loss.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p535 

In any case, I feel sorry for these people who go to seminars but don't learn that the best way to make money is by selling seminars.  Did someone tell your client that by calling it a business, the profit on that flipped house is going to be taxed twice, for income tax and then for self-employment tax?  And in a declining real estate market, that huge Schedule C loss combined with a 1099-S may inspire IRS to apply a $3,000 annual limit.  

AdriAuthor
Level 4
May 4, 2023

Thank you very much for your explanation. This has a lot of ramifications and I will be sure to advise him on that and,... I agree with your points. 

If he was your client, for year 2022, would you deduct any of the mentorship expense which allows him to contact/consult with experts and which he pays monthly?   Would you deduct any of the renewal of the coaching program?  or would you classify those two as non deductible just like the original course he took.

Thank you in advance for your answer,